In February 2008 the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) released a map showing the possible range of the burmese python in the southern United States. The maps shows Burmese pythons extending as for north as Virgnia on the east coast (and all the way to west to California). Being a resident of southeast Virginia for the past 15 years I can tell you without reservation that this is absolutely ridiculous. The map and the report submitted to support it are false. They are driven by fear and special interest motivations to end the reptile pet trade in the United States.
It vexes me how this type of false science is allowed to be released under the banner of a supposedly legitimate scientific organization. Doing so decreases the credibility of their legitimate works. Hey USGS, here’s a little nugget of information for you: the United States is a temperate region. That means we have something called seasons. Yeah, it’s warm enough to support an escaped Burmese python in the summer but the fall and winter will kill them faster than any Python Recovery Team you might want to assemble. Burmese pythons are from Southeast Asia (vast portions of which are a tropical region) and according to the book The Physical Geography of Southeast Asia, (screen shot here) annual temperature range in southeast asia is small, not more than 5 degrees (C) annually. Click here for a graph that shows annual temperatures in Vietnam (southeast Asia). That means that the same summer climate that supports Burmese in their native habitat is pretty much an all year thing, kind of like it is in the Florida Everglades. Take a quick drive north on I-95 to northern Florida and you’ll notice that it gets very cold in the winter. And guess what! Cold weather and snakes don’t go together. Every single reptile that lives on the east coast north of the florida everglades brumates to pass the winter; all of them. Guess what? Burmese pythons don’t brumate in cold weather. Know what they do? They die. Anybody who has ever kept Burmese pythons knows that they will get a sick at the drop of a hat. Keep your temps a little bit wrong and they will be hacking snot all over the glass of their locked enclosures.
I am disappointed in the USGS and the people who will let them submit falsehood as truth. The USGS slogan reads, “Science for a Changing World”. It should read, “Science for Changing the World”.
Cheers,
Colin Weaver
Colin,
As a Florida scientist (not with the USGS) who does fieldwork in the Everglades (completely unrelated to snakes), I take exception to your statements regarding the USGS and Burmese pythons. You indicated that “the U.S. is a temperate region, [has] seasons, [and that those seasons] will kill them faster than…”
The signs marking my city read “Welcome to the tropics” and we do indeed have a subtropical climate here. We are indeed routinely encountering large, breeding Burmese pythons in the Everglades–year round. Will they spread further north? – I do not have the expertise to say, but it would be presumptious of me to call USGS predictions “false.” It is more than enough concern to me, and many others, both field researchers and tax payers, that they are here now.
Perhaps you would do your readers a greater service to research the facts rather than blasting with “absolutely ridiculous” and “false.” It might even be useful to give some of those USGS researchers a call and ask them how they estimated the map. Maybe some of your insights into captive snakes might prove mutually beneficial.
I know this is not the right section to post this but I have to disagree with you on a lot of your views first I don’t agree with you on ball python prices and how you think just because you sacrificed everything of yours you think others are supposed to bust their asses and give up everything like you did it doesn’t work that way the point about kingsnake.com and how people put low prices I don’t agree with either kingsnake.com is a good site and the point of reducing prices is great #1 because breeders should be focusing on making ball python morphs more affordable instead of looking to make a profit and taking the get rich quick route
#2 ball pythons are pretty in every way no doubt about that but you and all the big breeders need to wake up and realize that they are not cars you don’t pay for their parts or for insurance you don’t pay for gas or anything that you need to pay in order to keep the car in tip top shape ball pythons on the other hand you don’t need to be paying all that much money when you can do something else like shopping or keeping up your bills instead of being in la la land depending on snakes to do your biddings and make money for you but paying for one snake is ridiculous the person who is buying should be getting something free thrown in with it or something but I personally don’t think breeders should be putting car prices on these snakes they are not worth that much money I don’t give a damn how long it took to breed that particular morph the point and goal should be to make them affordable to people who are interested and not just sell them to other big breeders and do these sneaky trades with them
Example ralph davis and his dreamsicles he charges $50,000 for only 1 only 1 not only that you have to pay an extra $65 for shipping now answer me this why should a person sacrifice everything to buy a snake for $50,000 and pay an extra $65 for shipping? If you ask me it sounds like he is in it for the money only and taking the quick route to getting rich you may not like what I am saying but I don’t think everybody should be on the breeders side all the time who are they? Just regular people importing baby balls every year by the thousands putting their breeders on a schedule of when to breed so why are they considered professionals just because they breed multiple females? The only thing they do is keep 95% of the babies and only sell very few sounds like a rip off and they are just being greedy you might also disagree with that but again it seems like everyone is always on the breeders side of things and not thinking logically
Breeders are really starting to make me sick most of them seem like they are beasting to be the first to produce a particular new color morph this is why I believe they will not prove out the labyrinth gene or the whitesmoke because they are too busy beasting to prove them out instead of focusing on other things the ball python business is not the only way to make money there are many other things people can do to bring in money besides depending on a bunch of snakes to make them thousands
Last but not least I would like to say I will not be buying from any breeder but I will be importing them straight from africa from now on breeders do not think or consider about the people who are interested in purchasing a certain morph they don’t consider lowering the price and making them more affordable I know one thing when I do get my snakes as wild caught delivered to me I wouldent turn around and chanrge a higher price on them piebalds should be $975-$1000 or lower that’s it burmese should be banned also I feel if a person wants to own one they should get a dwarf burmese or dwarf rectic you shouldent bash at kingsnake.com because people put low prices maybe if you would lower your prices you would have more customers and all morphs being $50 I’ve purchased morphs for that much but not from no breeder yes it was a breeder but it was a breeder from africa and I will continue to purchase them from africa I’d buy them any time over a big breeder if there was only 2 options I wouldent buy from these big breeders I would take my chances with a wild caught
Olivia,
Thanks for taking the time to disagree with me. It goes without saying that I am not swayed with anything you wrote; just as you won’t be wooed by anything I write.
This isn’t about pet snakes. It’s about investing. More cynical folks may call it speculating. And in case anyone has any confusion, let me perfectly clear on these points:
1. I love reptiles. They are fantastic.
2. I am absolutely in this for the money.
Designer morph ball pythons require a lot of time, attention and money to produce. They are not initially abundant and cost a lot of money as a result. The people who make the investments and take the risks deserve the rewards. It’s the simple concept of risk vs. reward. Take the risk, get the reward (or the loss if things don’t go well).
I’ll bet you are a democrat and voted for Obama. You come across like someone who thinks that you deserve the benefits of other people’s efforts. To you and others who think like you I simply say, “no”.
Colin Weaver
Hmmm. The release of exotic species is a major problem not only in the US but around the world.
Tropical fish released by college students going home on spring break to to people releasing other exotic animals so they can have a good home often displaces extant species from the local habitats. I know your opinion can never be changed but I think others that are out to defend the partial destruction of the natural America are not real Americans. I bet you have an ant farm of fire ants, raise house sparrows, and wish starlings would become the national bird.
I also noticed the research (I’m sorry the lack of research) in your opinion (I said opinion) about the spread of the snakes. Can you provide a list of research articles that disproves the USGS information. I am saying you are WRONG and cannot show anything other than opinion.
Trying to defend a position without information always makes you look stupid.
Ed, I have never released non-native fish into America’s ecosystem, even when I was in college. I don’t have an ant farm of fire ants and no and no to your bird comments. And to be clear on my so-called opinion: non-native species ARE a problem in the United States. Nobody on either side of this debate argues that point. I am an advocate of responsible herpetoculture. I do not want non-native species establishing themselves in our ecosystem (any more than they already have). I support realistic efforts to prevent this from happening. I only support efforts that do not impose on the rights of law-abiding, responsible pet owners to keep the exotic animals of their choosing.
In corporate circles I am what you call a ‘subject matter expert’. I have been keeping and breeding snakes for the better part of 20 years, I study continuously and have taken all relevant undergrad and graduate-level courses that deal with herpetology. I am a “student of the game.” During most of my 20 years as a herpetoculturist I have kept large constrictors. To be safe let’s cut that number by half and say that I have a full ten years of hands-on experience keeping large pythons. The success I had during that time means you can know that I acquired a lot of knowledge about the environment they need in order to survive. The corollary is that I have also gained knowledge about the environments in which they won’t survive. Having also been a resident of Virginia for the past 23 years I can tell you that a python WILL NOT survive here. Go ahead and call that opinion if you wish. So no, I am not wrong. The USGS is offering information as fact that has been derived from hypothesis. That is misleading and serves only to provide ammunition for people who want to ban exotic animals in the pet trade.
And to be clear on one final point: releasing an exotic animal into the wild does not help someone to “have a good home”. Quite the opposite, I suggest. Having exotic animals in your home is an enriching experience.
-Colin Weaver
Again I hear opinion. How do you know that pythons will not survive in Maryland? Have you ever seen studies or have done research on the temperature range or behavior in cold weather of these snakes? You maybe correct that large constrictors cannot live in freezing weather.
There have been many discoveries in science that were followed by the statement “that wasn’t suppose to happen.” Are there any “hiding places” like under pier-and-beam houses. Many animals bury themselves or have some other adaptation inorder to escape the cold temperatures or dry conditions that could otherwise kill them.
Lets assume pythons have been released into cold winter states. Could these snakes adapt by hiding by finding some of these hiding places. I have no idea and with out more information on the subject I wouldn’t make any comment in either direction. If I’m correct, timber rattlers in the North East have this adapation and rattlers in some parts of the Southwest also have this behavior.
Garter snakes cannot survive freezing temperatures but have you ever seen the garter snakes coming from one of their winter dens? Could pythons have this behavior? I have no idea. If I found a large constrictor in a New England state I would ask two questions; is the snake a recent release or has it been in the area for longer than one year?
A few years ago wolves were released in Yellowstone in order to restore a natural balance. To the surprise to all the scientists the beaver population exploded. I’m sure many were saying “I didn’t expect that.” But after looking at the data everyone said “that makes sense.”
Your knowledge of care and breeding of large snakes may be the best in the US but your knowledge of the ‘nature of science’ is very limited.
What bothers me the most is your comment that the USGS is faking data or providing misleading statements. Trust me, the last thing a scientist want to do is publish false data. If the data is shown to be faked or the conclusions are incorrect it tells the scientific world that your are not to be trusted.
They only reason you made that statement was you felt the government was out to get you.
In fact I want to thank you for your initial statements. I teach a course over the ‘nature of science’ and I will use your opinions and misleading statements as an example of how opinion and emotion often overshadows fact and logic.
One final thought. I saw your comment about voting for Obama and being a Democrate. That made me smile. When in a debate and are losing you attack you opponent on the personal level in order to get them to lose track of their argument.
Oh I have one final comment. I read your one of your statements and totally agree. I spent three years in Southern florida and totally enjoyed the snowball fights each winter. I was totally crazy in those years. We would go SCUBA diving without wet suits during the winter months and it is amazing that we didn’t freeze to death. We were tough.
I have been trying to grow lemon trees in Texas and have had zero luck. I don’t have any idea why they die each winter. They survived each in winter in Southern Florida. Maybe its my bad luck. I have the same luck with coconut trees. Can you provide some help.
Ed,
All non-native species are guilty until proven innocent. Is that it? If we can’t prove a species is not invasive then it must be invasive. That’s the gist of HR669 and that’s why I oppose it and the misleading information provided by the USGS that supports it.
Is a lack of knowledge about the survivability of pythons up north the reason we should have a national ban on large constrictors? Because even though “it’s not supposed to happen”, it could? The animals could learn to adapt? You call that the ‘nature of science’? It appears that the USGS does. They are presenting speculation as fact (with a little help from the media) and that is wrong for a scientific organization to do. If Burmese pythons so adaptable to cooler climates why haven’t they naturally migrated north in their native habitat? Because they cannot survive. It’s not supposed to happen …and it doesn’t. It doesn’t happen in Burma and Thailand and it doesn’t happen on the East Coast of the United States.
From what I read about your perspective the only way to satisfy your evidence requirement is to release some pythons in Maryland or Virgina and see what happens. Despite being illegal, I don’t think that you would support that. I certainly don’t. It will lead to the senseless death of the released pythons.
Here is something that all keepers of large constrictors know: If you have large constrictors in a climate controlled facility and you lose power in the winter months and the temperature drops down into the low 60′s or 50′s for even a short time you will likely have yourself a burm with a respiratory infection when the lights come back on. Burmese pythons with respiratory infections do not survive very well without skilled veterinary care. I don’t have to conduct studies in the wild to know that large pythons do not do well in cold climates. Being an active participant in the world of herpetoculture has taught me that. It’s also a reason that all serious breeders pay many thousands of dollars to install generators to provide backup power to their facilities. We know the damage cool temperatures can have on our animals so we work tirelessly to prevent them.
Pet owners and for-profit herpetoculturists can’t win against academics. If you get to stand behind things like “it shouldn’t happen, but it could” as a reason to support a ban on large constrictors why should I have to come up with an official scientific study to support my perspective? The government hasn’t conducted any real studies so why does the USGS, some members of Congress and some academic institutions get to act like they have? HR669 is a based on non-scientific findings being presented as fact. This isn’t about my lack of scientific data, it’s about the government’s lack of it.
My comment about Obama doesn’t stem from being on the losing end of an argument. Not even close. I am quite confident in my angle. It comes from the fact that most of the ideas of democratic party are horrible and I disagree with them with the very fabric of my being. When I see them, I call them out. The rewards of my success (and my failures) are mine and mine alone and the other poster feels that the successes of the risk takers should be spread out amongst those who stood by and watched; a decidedly democrat perspective. I will never accept that. But discussing politics is off-topic so please contact me via email if you want to have a civil discussion on those points.
Thank you for your continued posts. While our ideas do not coincide I think others who take the time to read this will benefit from our differing perspectives.
I like the clever undertone of your additional comment. Snowfall is soooo common in Southern Florida and Burmese pythons are surviving there. How can this be? Doesn’t that disprove the whole cold weather argument that Colin is making? Well, snow is not common in Florida. In fact, it’s so uncommon that each event is documented in a special section on Wikepedia. Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_snow_events_in_Florida
Here are a few bullets from Wikipedia for those who don’t take time to follow the link above:
* January 24, 2003: A plume of Arctic air produces widespread record low temperatures and light snow flurries along the eastern coastline. The snow is described as ocean effect snow, identical to lake effect snow in that it occurs due to very cold air passing over relatively warm water temperatures. The snow reaches as far south as Fort Pierce. No accumulation is reported due to rising temperatures throughout the day.
* December 25, 2004: Locations along the Florida Panhandle receive a dusting of snow.
* November 21, 2006: An eastward moving weather system produces a very light dusting and snowflakes in central Florida. It is the first snow in November in the state since 1912.
* February 3, 2007: Very light snow flurries are reported in the panhandle, lasting less than an hour.
* April 8, 2007: Portions of the western Florida Panhandle receive brief durations of sleet.
* December 25, 2007: Sleet, occasionally mixed with snow, is reported in portions of the western Florida Panhandle. The sleet lasted about 30 minutes before becoming a thunderstorm with rain, sleet, and hail.
* January 3, 2008: Light snow flurries are reported near Daytona Beach.
You’ll have to sell a different argument that that. I’m not buying it.
As for your lemon trees: Sounds to me like they don’t like the climate. Just like Burmses pythons won’t like the winter months up the east coast.
I am just curious, but what is so wrong for voting for Obama?
Btw, don’t you think permits are okay, if people really don’t like them, the experienced, serious hobbyists can get some and show everybody that they are responsible. As for burms moving into CA, that’s kinda doubtful. I think you are correct. And in this situation, common sense on whether an animal that can’t tolerate non tropical climates can survive in cold areas of the US is helpful.
As for “Olivia”, why get ball pythons imported? Everyone knows they are hard to acclimate, and it’s not exactly great for the environment either. Think about the animal. Why can’t you spend 20 or so dollars on a normal? Ranting on someone while doing something unethical yourself isn’t very nice. I’m pretty sure breeders do it because a new morph is exclusive, and they need to make money before the price PLUMMETS with every breeding. You’ll see, some day pastels will be cheap. Sure, breeders with their LAM setups aren’t making snakes look very interesting, but they’re still cool animals, and he can do what he wants in terms of price, as can everybody.
It’s nice to be able to follow up on Ed’s comments. Testimony before Congress last week revealed that a northern study on pythons and boas had a 100% mortality rate during the winter cold spell. And in the Everglades 9 out of 10 radio-tracked Burmese pythons died.
This is compelling evidence that these animals cannot invade the United States as the USGS, in their effort to gather federal dollars, suggests.
Henry, I am not opposed to discussing mechanisms that incorporate accountability in pet ownership. Responsible pet ownership benefits everybody; the pets, the pet owners, the environment and people who choose to not own pets. Responsible pet owners hold themselves accountable and that is the very best kind of governing. Putting ban or other restrictions in place only hurts them. Irresponsible pet owners are not likely to stop doing what they are doing even if there is a ban. I would much rather see stronger punishments for people who are not responsible. I oppose legislation that is based exclusively on fear, personal and political agendas, lies and misinformation. As time passes it is becoming more and more evident (to more and more people) that the lies being perpetuated by the USGS are of a personal and political nature and not of a scientific nature. This is a very blatant case of politics masquerading as science. I am disappointed by the Department of the Interior, Ken Salazar (appointed by Obama), and the USGS.